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“Jesus is for everyone. Your church is not.” That one sentence from Tyler Hardin of Firm Foundations Marketing perfectly sums up a major challenge most churches face today: a lack of clarity. In a recent episode of the Pro Church Marketing Podcast, host Jono Long sat down with Tyler to unpack why churches struggle with growth—even when they’re doing “all the right things.” Whether it's pouring money into Facebook ads or launching a shiny new website, many churches find themselves exhausted, frustrated, and stuck. The reason? They’re starting in the wrong place. The Real Reason Your Church Isn’t Growing Churches often begin with tactics: running ads, creating flyers, redesigning websites. But as Tyler points out, none of those efforts work if you don’t first understand who you’re trying to reach. Too many churches aim for generic goals like “young families” or “unchurched people” without any meaningful definition behind those labels. “If you say you want to reach young families,” Tyler says, “is that a couple in their 30s with toddlers or a single mom in her 40s with teens? Those lives are completely different.” Knowing your community isn’t a marketing luxury—it’s a ministry necessity. Why “We Want to Reach Everyone” Doesn’t Work Most pastors are quick to say, “We just want to reach our community. Everyone is welcome!” While the heart behind that is beautiful, the strategy behind it falls flat. “When you say you're trying to reach everyone, you reach no one,” Tyler explains. “Your message becomes generic. Your ministries don’t feel relevant. And your people are overextended trying to do everything.” Defining a target audience isn’t about excluding people—it’s about making sure someone feels truly seen, known, and served. The 5 Ps: A Simple Framework for Clarity Not sure where to begin? Tyler offers a free, powerful tool: the 5 Ps of Church Target Audience . People – Who are they? (Age, family status, lifestyle) Place – Where are they coming from? (Zip codes, neighborhoods, travel time) Passions – What lights them up? (Causes, community involvement, values) Pain Points – What are they struggling with? (Loneliness, addiction, parenting stress) Pursuits – What are they chasing? (Career, belonging, stability) Start with these. Talk to your members. Ask your community leaders. You don’t need a big budget—just a notebook, a few conversations, and a curious heart. Authenticity Over Hype Many churches feel tempted to “pretty up” their marketing—using photos of young families they don’t actually have, or hyping ministries that are barely off the ground. Tyler’s advice? Don’t. “Embrace who you are. There are people who want your small church, your traditional service, your real community,” he says. Instead of trying to be what you're not, show people what you are. If your sanctuary is full of seniors who love hymns, let that shine. If your church loves messy people and recovery ministry, make that your message. Authenticity is magnetic. Healthy Growth Means Intentional Growth We all want to grow. But fast growth without systems leads to burnout and disconnection. Healthy growth, Tyler explains, is marked by: Clear next steps for guests Real relationships, not just high attendance Sustainable ministry paced for your capacity Growth isn’t just about numbers—it’s about souls. It’s about caring for the people who do show up and making sure they’re known, discipled, and connected. What If You’re a Small, Rural, or Declining Church? Don’t count yourself out. Tyler shared a story of a 30-member church in rural Pennsylvania—mostly seniors—who discovered through research that they were ideally positioned to serve a specific group in their area. They didn’t need to become a megachurch. They just needed to become more intentional. If you can’t afford professional research yet, start with conversations. Ask local teachers, council members, or even families at the grocery store: What’s our community struggling with? What are people looking for in a church? The answers might surprise you—and guide your next steps. Take the First Step Today Clarity doesn’t come from copying the latest trends. It comes from asking better questions. Start with the 5 Ps. Talk to your people. And if you're ready for a deeper dive, check out the community research services at Firm Foundations Marketing . Your church doesn’t need to become something it’s not. It just needs to become more of what it already is—on purpose, with clarity, and with love for the people God has called you to reach.

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It’s the same story in churches across the country. You ask pastors, “What’s your biggest struggle?” And more often than not, the answer is the same: leadership development . From small churches to megachurches, pastors are feeling the pressure — “I just don’t have enough leaders.” The strange part? We live in the most content-rich leadership culture in history. Search “church leadership” on Amazon or YouTube, and you’ll be buried in books, sermons, and training videos. So what’s the disconnect? According to leadership expert and Multiply Group founder Mac Lake, we don’t have a content problem—we have a process problem . In a recent conversation on the Pro Church Marketing Podcast, Mac dropped some serious wisdom that every pastor and ministry leader needs to hear. If your church is stuck, frustrated, or flat-out burned out from trying to raise up leaders, read on. We Don’t Have a Content Problem—We Have a Process Problem Mac has been in the trenches—planting churches, coaching pastors, and working alongside ministries of all sizes. One of the most shocking stats he shared? A survey conducted in both 2008 and 2018 showed the exact same thing: leadership development was still the #1 issue churches faced. In other words, 10 years passed and nothing changed . Why? Because churches have misunderstood what leadership development actually is. “In America, we think, ‘If I said it, you got it.’ We think dumping information equals transformation.” — Mac Lake But real leadership development isn’t about downloading content into people’s heads. It’s about walking with them through a process that transforms their character, skillset, and capacity. Common Mistakes Churches Make in Leadership Development Here’s the hard truth: most churches are doing leadership placement, not leadership development. Instead of building from the ground up, we’re hoping to recruit already-polished volunteers from other churches. Instead of developing a healthy leadership culture, we throw new volunteers into ministry after two weeks of shadowing and hope for the best. Mac calls this “putting someone in the batting cage, throwing two pitches, and then sending them into a ballgame.” The result? Frustrated leaders. Bottlenecks. Burnout. Another mistake: confusing readiness with willingness . “We're looking for readiness, not willingness. And there’s a shortage in our pipelines because we never built a culture of leadership development yesterday.” — Mac Lake If we wait for perfect, fully-formed leaders to appear, we’ll be waiting forever. Instead, we need to spot potential, not polish. What Jesus Modeled—and Why We’re Missing It Let’s take a cue from the ultimate leadership developer: Jesus. Mac broke down Jesus’ leadership process chronologically. For nearly 21 months , Jesus hung out with future disciples before appointing the 12. Once He did, He didn’t just dump knowledge on them. He apprenticed them intentionally —giving them both content and real-life ministry experience. “He spent a disproportionate amount of time with a few to impact the many.” — Mac Lake And here’s the key: the 12 weren’t perfect. They still argued about who was the greatest. But Jesus saw potential. He saw what they could become—not just where they were. In contrast, many modern churches are intimidated by church culture. We bend our methods to keep people happy, rather than following biblical principles. But Mac puts it plainly: “Do you want to build your church around cultural norms or biblical principles?” Building a Scalable Leadership Pipeline So what’s the alternative? How do we actually build leaders? It starts with a pipeline—a clearly defined structure that identifies where someone is, and what they need to grow to the next level. Mac outlines five key stages in the leadership pipeline: Lead Self – personal responsibility, spiritual maturity. Lead Others – small groups, teams, entry-level leadership. Lead Leaders – coaching, oversight of team leaders. Lead a Ministry/Department – directors, strategic leaders. Lead the Church – pastors, executive staff. At each level, there should be clear competencies, character traits , and onboarding systems . This framework not only helps identify current leaders, but allows churches to measure the “depth chart” in every ministry area—just like a football team knows its backups. Where to Start—Even If You’re Busy and Bi-Vocational Here’s the encouraging part: this doesn’t require massive teams, software, or budgets. “All it takes is picking two people and walking them through a process.” — Mac Lake Mac recommends starting with two current leaders who you trust. Walk them through his book Leading Others, a leadership development tool built for churches. Meet every other week. Talk through the competencies. Let them try. Then, challenge them to do the same with two new people the next semester. This developer-to-developer model mirrors Jesus’ ministry and multiplies impact faster than hiring more staff. Real-Life Example: From Small Group to Movement Mac shared a story about his wife—a stay-at-home grandma—who started a women’s small group. After one semester, she picked three women to meet with every other week using Leading Others. By the next semester, those women launched their own groups. And she started the process again. Now those three women are training their own future leaders. Just like that, 12 new small group leaders are born—not by accident, but through intentional development. And that’s the secret sauce: simple, reproducible systems that start with relationship. Final Thoughts: Stop Looking—Start Building If your church is struggling to find leaders, don’t be discouraged. The problem isn’t your people. It’s not even your budget. The problem is that we haven’t been discipling people to lead like Jesus. It’s time to make a shift. ✅ Stop looking for pre-packaged leaders. ✅ Start developing the willing. ✅ Move from “doers” to “developers.” ✅ And build a leadership culture that lasts. Whether you’re a full-time pastor or bi-vocational leader, the path forward is clear: start small, start now, and stay consistent . 🔗 Resources Mentioned: Get the Free eBook: Rethinking Leadership Development Mac Lake on Instagram Learn more at MultiplyGroup.org

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In a quiet corner of North Carolina lies Kinston, a small town of 25,000 people nestled in a rural county of about 55,000. You might drive through it on your way to the beach or a military base—but it’s here, in the middle of the “pass-through,” that something powerful is happening. At the heart of it is 902 Church , led by Pastor Ryan Vernon —a former business professional turned pastor, whose passion for people, systems, and the gospel is changing the game for church leadership in small-town America. What makes 902 Church’s growth so special? It’s not just the Sunday sermons (though those are 🔥). It’s the culture, the intentional systems, the leadership development, and a deep love for the local community that’s propelling this church forward—and making it a model for others to follow. From Boardroom to Pulpit: An Unlikely Journey Pastor Ryan didn’t grow up dreaming of ministry. After graduating from East Carolina University with a degree in business marketing, he headed into the corporate world. But while attending a growing, contemporary church in San Antonio, Texas, he heard the Holy Spirit whisper, “That’s what I want you to do.” From that moment, everything changed. Ryan began serving in student ministry, first in Texas and eventually back in his hometown—where he swore he’d never return. But God had other plans. In 2013, with a small team of friends, Ryan helped launch 902 Church. “Honestly,” he says, “I thought we’d last two weeks. A month would’ve been revival.” Now, twelve years later, 902 Church is thriving. Culture, Systems, and Teams: The Three Gears of Growth If you’re a pastor wondering where to start when it comes to leading well and growing your church, Ryan’s advice is simple: focus on culture , systems , and teams . 🎯 Culture Culture flows from the top. At 902, the culture is about going—going into the community, reaching people far from God, and creating a place where people feel seen, known, and called. This go-first mentality starts in the pulpit and filters through every ministry. 🔧 Systems Ryan admits he’s not a “systems guy” by nature—but he’s learned their value. 902 has developed onboarding systems like their Start Here class, which helps new attendees discover their spiritual gifts and passions. They use tools like Planning Center to track those gifts and make strategic decisions about where to plug people in. 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Teams Instead of scrambling to fill roles with warm bodies, Ryan and his team are committed to putting the right people in the right seats on the right bus . That means sitting down with people, learning their stories, and identifying how God has uniquely gifted them. “You’ll never feel more spiritually alive than when you’re doing what God called you to do,” he says. Raising Up Leaders Without Burning Them Out It’s the question every pastor wrestles with: How do I find and keep good leaders? For Ryan, the answer lies in intentionality . In the early days of the church, he built a core team by identifying people with strengths in finance, real estate, and business—areas where he had gaps. “I knew my job was to preach and teach. But I needed people who could handle the things I didn’t know.” Today, 902’s leadership pipeline includes spiritual gifts assessments, open conversations, and a culture of permission —people are encouraged to try a role, but they’re also given the freedom to move if it’s not a fit. There are regular check-ins, limited commitments (“Will you serve in this ministry for one year?”), and lots of grace for movement. And when someone’s in the wrong seat? Ryan offers a gentle, honest conversation—sometimes with a redirection. “You don’t seem happy. Are you sure this is where God’s called you?” More often than not, they’re relieved to be released and excited to find their true place. Yes, Church Marketing Works. Here’s Why It Matters. Some critics say churches shouldn’t market themselves. Ryan’s answer? “Show me that in Scripture.” Citing Romans 10:14, he reminds us: “How will they hear unless someone tells them?” We live in a world where people are marketed to daily—through Doritos commercials, Super Bowl ads, and Instagram reels. Why wouldn’t the church use the same tools to share the greatest news ever? “We’re not promoting ourselves,” he explains. “I just want you to get into a church—whether that’s 902 or another one. Your eternal destiny depends on it.” That’s why Ryan partnered with Faithworks—to amplify the message and meet people where they are: online. And yes, it’s working. “I’ve had people recognize me in the grocery store from TikTok,” he says. “They saw our content online and showed up to church.” It’s Not Just About Ads. It’s About Showing Up. At the end of the day, no marketing strategy can replace the power of showing up . From the start, 902 Church has been all about being in the community—not just inviting people to come in. They’ve done VBS in the roughest neighborhoods, built trust with local leaders (even gang members), and served at shelters, pregnancy centers, and schools. Ryan asks a powerful question every church leader should consider: If your church shut down tomorrow, would anyone in your city notice? At 902, the answer is yes—and it’s not because of billboards or Facebook ads. It’s because they go. Final Words for Church Leaders: Get a Coach and Go When asked for one piece of advice to give other pastors, Ryan doesn’t hesitate: “ Culture, systems, and teams. And get a coach. ” He points to top athletes like LeBron and Jordan who relied on multiple coaches to stay sharp. “If they need coaches, we do too.” Whether it’s ministry leadership or digital outreach, don’t try to do it alone. Want to Reach More People in Your Community? Start with: Building a gospel-centered culture . Creating simple, sustainable systems . Equipping teams by placing people where they’re gifted, not just needed. Getting out into your community—and online. Partnering with people who can help. As Ryan puts it, “Faithworks poured gas on the fire. We were already seeing growth, but now the impact is multiplying.” The gospel hasn’t changed—but the way we share it can. And should.

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